Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[Gazza]

So do you have a concern or not?

About the trans community in general no. But I do have reservations about participating in gender specific sport competitions.

Is there data on 'trans crimes' in toilets?

I’m not saying anything about crimes, I’m talking about feeling comfortable about a bloke who identifies as a female going to the ladies. I have a young daughter and I have reservations.

Do you mean mixed sex when you suggest gender neutral toilets?

Yes

Are female toilets always desperate cubicles with a lockable door?

I would presume so.

 

[LutonSpurs]

I assume you mean separate rather than desperate? Although thinking about it...you could be right.

Lol it's a great typo

 

[Jurgen the German]

This site is 30 years old?

I keep coming back here, despite telling myself I spend far too much time on this site, because I'm genuinely interested in debate.

When it comes to Baleforce, though, I'm honestly not bothered that he's blocked me, and I wouldn't be if I were you either. In my experience, he's the type of person who isn't interested in genuine discussion. If he does engage, it often seems to end with him dismissing people as bigots the moment they express a view he disagrees with.

The best approach is simply to avoid people like that rather than waste time trying to debate them. It's not an ideal solution, I know, but they don't seem interested in finding practical solutions or having good-faith conversations. Instead, they prefer to shout people down and shame anyone who disagrees with them.

Quite frankly, I think he's a troll, and I'm surprised more people don't call him out for it.

 

[Jurgen the German]

So do you have a concern or not?

Is there data on 'trans crimes' in toilets?

Do you mean mixed sex when you suggest gender neutral toilets?

Are female toilets always desperate cubicles with a lockable door?

I think gender-neutral toilets would be a sensible compromise.

What really doesn't help these debates is people like Baleforce. These issues are complex, and there are often genuine grey areas and ambiguities, but he seems to reduce everything to a simplistic moral framework. The approach appears to be to automatically side with whichever group is perceived to be the most disadvantaged, even when that may come at the expense of another group's legitimate concerns—in this case, women. But these issues are rarely black and white.

Topics such as race, gender, antisemitism, knife crime, and violence against women are all difficult and emotionally charged. They require careful, rigorous debate rather than slogans or attempts to shut down discussion.

I understand the importance of protecting trans people, who often face discrimination and prejudice. At the same time, it's also reasonable to listen to women's concerns about female-only spaces, including questions about how access should be managed when someone identifies as a woman. A fair discussion should be able to acknowledge both sets of concerns without dismissing either side out of hand.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

I think gender-neutral toilets would be a sensible compromise.

Which is generally what is happening from what I can see, there are more and more of these toilet set ups, especially in new builds where there are rows of say 5/10 private cubicles rather than two separate "open" toilets. I think the pitfalls on the situation are being overplayed by some, I do think there is a safe guarding issue to an extent but as I have said previously, history has proven that if a man wants to rape or sexually abuse a woman they will find a way which doesn't need them to dress up as a woman to do it.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Which is generally what is happening from what I can see, there are more and more of these toilet set ups, especially in new builds where there are rows of say 5/10 private cubicles rather than two separate "open" toilets. I think the pitfalls on the situation are being overplayed by some, I do think there is a safe guarding issue to an extent but as I have said previously, history has proven that if a man wants to rape or sexually abuse a woman they will find a way which doesn't need them to dress up as a woman to do it.

That's an important issue, but it's not the only one. If women feel uncomfortable with people they perceive as male entering female-only spaces, then those concerns deserve to be heard and discussed respectfully rather than dismissed out of hand.

The same applies to women's sport. If female athletes believe that competing against some transgender athletes creates an unfair competitive advantage, then their concerns should also be taken seriously. I don't see why it's unreasonable to explore alternatives, such as creating a separate category for trans athletes where practical.

As things stand, many female athletes say they don't feel able to express their views publicly for fear of backlash, including the potential loss of sponsorships or damage to their careers. Whatever someone's position on the issue, surely we can agree that it's unhealthy if athletes feel unable to voice their opinions on a matter that directly affects their profession and livelihood?

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

The same applies to women's sport. If female athletes believe that competing against some transgender athletes creates an unfair competitive advantage, then their concerns should also be taken seriously. I don't see why it's unreasonable to explore alternatives, such as creating a separate category for trans athletes where practical.

As things stand, many female athletes say they don't feel able to express their views publicly for fear of backlash, including the potential loss of sponsorships or damage to their careers. Whatever someone's position on the issue, surely we can agree that it's unhealthy if athletes feel unable to voice their opinions on a matter that directly affects their profession and livelihood?

Hasn't that been largely addressed? More governing bodies have sided with women now and banned Trans competitors?

 

[Jurgen the German]

Hasn't that been largely addressed? More governing bodies have sided with women now and banned Trans competitors?

It has been addressed to some extent, but I wouldn't say the issue is settled by any means.

I also want to make it clear that I think it's wrong if transgender people are excluded from sport altogether. That's why I think governing bodies should seriously explore creating a separate category where it's practical to do so, rather than framing the debate as an all-or-nothing choice.

I also think the way the media presents the issue doesn't help. Headlines often describe transgender athletes as being "banned" from sport, when in many cases they are still permitted to compete in categories based on biological sex. That framing inevitably shapes public perception. A more balanced headline might be something like: "Transgender athletes no longer eligible for the women's category as governing body prioritises competitive fairness in women's sport."Whether people agree with the policy or not, that wording more accurately reflects what has changed.

Overall, I think it's fairly clear that many media organisations have adopted a particular perspective on this issue, and that can make it harder to have a nuanced discussion that acknowledges the competing rights and interests involved.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

About the trans community in general no. But I do have reservations about participating in gender specific sport competitions.

I’m not saying anything about crimes, I’m talking about feeling comfortable about a bloke who identifies as a female going to the ladies. I have a young daughter and I have reservations.

Yes

I would presume so.

So regarding this 'gender neutral toilet' solution.

I've been in more than one workplace where mixed sex toilets have been in operation.

You walk in....wash basins and mirrors, the 6 or 7 lockable cubicles.

Now I've never been in a female toilet (I say never, but probably back in the late 80s early 90s I've been in a few subterranean clubs smashed on mdma, filling a water bottle or chatting brick in the ladies, tbh we all could have been anywhere) ...I digress, but I can't quite figure out how a ladies loo would be laid out any different??

May I also ask...if anyone's daughter is shopping in say, TK Maxx, and uses the changing rooms isnt this an issue as well?, as security in that situation is weaker ie often just a curtain.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Topics such as race, gender, antisemitism, knife crime, and violence against women are all difficult and emotionally charged. They require careful, rigorous debate rather than slogans or attempts to shut down discussion.

How do you have a 'rigorous debate' about violence against women?

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

So regarding this 'gender neutral toilet' solution.

I've been in more than one workplace where mixed sex toilets have been in operation.

You walk in....wash basins and mirrors, the 6 or 7 lockable cubicles.

Now I've never been in a female toilet (I say never, but probably back in the late 80s early 90s I've been in a few subterranean clubs smashed on mdma, filling a water bottle or chatting brick in the ladies, tbh we all could have been anywhere) ...I digress, but I can't quite figure out how a ladies loo would be laid out any different??

May I also ask...if anyone's daughter is shopping in say, TK Maxx, and uses the changing rooms isnt this an issue as well?, as security in that situation is weaker ie often just a curtain.

And all changing rooms in shops are mixed with individual cubicles. Now don't get me wrong I am no shopping or womens shop expert, but if Marks and Spencers (I am that age) is anything to go on I can't imagine any shop where thats run like a frat house where everyones getting naked together??

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

If he does engage, it often seems to end with him dismissing people as bigots the moment they express a view he disagrees with.

That's ok ...if he thinks the view he disagrees with is bigoted?

Do you disengage at that point, or do you ask him to explain why he finds it's bigoted? As it's a big accusation.

Maybe,one or both of you would then come to a better conclusion?

 

[robp135]

And all changing rooms in shops are mixed with individual cubicles. Now don't get me wrong I am no shopping or womens shop expert, but if Marks and Spencers (I am that age) is anything to go on I can't imagine any shop where thats run like a frat house where everyones getting naked together??

What about changing rooms at a gym/leisure centre?

I take my 5 year old daughter in to the women’s toilets when I am with her most of the time. Restaurants, shopping etc. But I couldn’t take her to the gym with me yet as it be wrong for me to go in with her to the women’s where they shower and change.

 

[robp135]

That's ok ...if he thinks the view he disagrees with is bigoted?

Do you disengage at that point, or do you ask him to explain why he finds it's bigoted? As it's a big accusation.

Maybe,one or both of you would then come to a better conclusion?

Go back a page and read why he “blocked” me.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

What about changing rooms at a gym/leisure centre?

I take my 5 year old daughter in to the women’s toilets when I am with her most of the time. Restaurants, shopping etc. But I couldn’t take her to the gym with me yet as it be wrong for me to go in with her to the women’s where they shower and change.

Well thats an scenario that exists regardless of the trans agenda no?

But I will indulge....do what loads I know do, go ready for the gym, use the disabled toilet to change her or toilet. Come into the mens and say you have your daughter and ask politely if people will cover when there. My gym has a pool and men bring their daughters in to change all the time, just takes some courtesy on both sides

 

[Jurgen the German]

That's ok ...if he thinks the view he disagrees with is bigoted?

Do you disengage at that point, or do you ask him to explain why he finds it's bigoted? As it's a big accusation.

Maybe,one or both of you would then come to a better conclusion?

He said he's blocked me and, frankly, that's fine. It's not worth engaging with people who aren't interested in having a genuine discussion. I've said for a while that I think he's trolling, and responses like that only reinforce that impression.

I'd much rather engage with people who are willing to consider different viewpoints, even if they ultimately disagree with me. That's how constructive debate works. If everyone simply dismisses opposing views, you end up with little more than groupthink.

I also think it's rather childish to block someone and label them a bigot when there's nothing inherently bigoted about what they've said. I've repeatedly argued that we need a sensible, robust debate about issues relating to transgender people. Too often, though, people like Baleforce seem more interested in Ad hominem attacks and shutting down the discussion and claiming the moral high ground than engaging with the substance of the argument.

 

[robp135]

Well thats an scenario that exists regardless of the trans agenda no?

But I will indulge....do what loads I know do, go ready for the gym, use the disabled toilet to change her or toilet. Come into the mens and say you have your daughter and ask politely if people will cover when there. My gym has a pool and men bring their daughters in to change all the time, just takes some courtesy on both sides

Do you have children?

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

Do you have children?

Yep, I have a son, whats the point?

 

[robp135]

Yep, I have a son, whats the point?

It’s not my place to make suggestions on how you raise them.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

It’s not my place to make suggestions on how you raise them.

I am genuinely lost with what you are trying to say?